View source for Talk:OGF:Federal States/Interregional rail transport

=Freight Corridor Workspace=
<!-- Please keep this section at the top of the page. -->
''To help guide coordination on freight rail corridors, please use this table. Note that, unlike the motorways network, parallel and competing routes are welcome. Only one main line per company, please. In the future, '''some lines and companies will be consolidated to form national companies.''' Company names listed below will be considered entries for potential national railroad company names; however, the final list of major national railroad company names will be determined by consensus.'' '''Except for "Completed" corridors, all corridors listed below are considered non-official.''' <!-- State abbreviations can be found at https://wiki.opengeofiction.net/wiki/index.php/Federal_States; for vacant states, use their AR120-xx code. -->

<small>
{| class="wikitable sortable"
|-
! Company Name <!-- If you don't want to create a company name, use "[Terminus] & [Terminus] Railway/Railroad". -->
! Status <!-- Completed: fully mapped with relation; Construction: in the process of being mapped; Draft: All states are confirmed, but corridors have not yet been chosen; Discussion: States are in early stages of collaborating on a corridor; Theoretical: corridor has been conceived but outreach has not yet begun to states in the corridor; Cancelled: corridor cannot be completed due to a fatal flaw. -->
! Northern or Western Terminus
! Southern or Eastern Terminus
! class=unsortable|Relation (optional) <!-- Insert a link to the relation, if applicable. -->
! Lead Organizer <!-- Each corridor needs at least one Lead Organizer who will direct coordination efforts. Multiple lead organizers are allowed. -->
! class=unsortable|Confirmed States <!-- Confirmed states have decided on a final alignment within their state. The corridor may or may not be mapped yet. -->
! class=unsortable|States in Discussion <!-- States in Discussion are open to participating in the corridor, but have not yet picked a corridor. -->
! class=unsortable|Potential States <!-- Potential States include states that have not yet been reached out to, or who have not yet responded to an invitation to collaborate. Include any vacant states in the corridor. -->
! class=unsortable|Notes
! Last Updated <!-- Use date in YYYY-MM-DD format for easier sorting. -->
|-
| Minnonigan Central Railroad
| Discussion
| Port Massehanee, AL
| Lake City, MN
| 
| TheMayor
| MN
| AQ, TJ, AL
| 71, TE, OQ
| Discussing alignments in Tejoma and Osaquoya.
| 2020-05-03
|-
| Sauganash and Northern Railroad
| Discussion
| Jundah-Stuart, TA
| Lake City, MN
|
| TheMayor
| MN
| CL, TA
| WJ
| Discussing alignments in Clamash and Tauhon.
| 2020-05-03
|-
| [[Great Eastern and Stanton Folkstone Railway|Great Eastern and Stanton Folkstone Railway Company]]
| partially established before recent debate
| 
| 
| {{MER-coordinates | relation = 185848| name = GESF}}<br>(#FC6A0C)
| [[User:Mstr|mstr]]
| AL, AS, CP, CR, EM, FT, NC, OK, SN, WK, WM
| 
| WS, 31, NP, 48, MI, MN, 59
| 
| 2020-05-08
|-
| [[Great Eastern and Stanton Folkstone Railway#Stanton Folkstone Railway|Stanton Folkstone Railway]]
| partially established before recent debate
| [[Wallawaukee]], SN
| [[Folkstone]], OK
|
| [[User:Mstr|mstr]]
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 2020-05-08
|-
| [[Great Eastern and Stanton Folkstone Railway#Great Eastern Railway|Great Eastern Railway]]
| partially established before recent debate
| [[Port Massehanee]], AL
| [[Hope Harbor]], AS
|
| [[User:Mstr|mstr]]
| 
| 
| 
| via Folkstone, OK
| 2020-05-08
|-
| Compass and Western Railroad
| Construction; Some Eastern Portions complete. Relations have been established.
| Not yet Confirmed (As of now, WS; Anticipating Sierra)
| Not yet Confirmed (AR, PQ, DI area)
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/184530 C&WR]
| Zytik
| NC, PQ, AR, GL, WS, NP
| CD, DI, MN
| OS, RP, SR,
| Objective is Sierra to Arghenna/Penquisset/DI
| 2020-06-14
|-
| Scantuck & Southern Railroad
| Complete
| Waltmore, NC
| Divinity's Grace, CR
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/186095 S&S]
| Whateversusan
| NC, CR
|
|
|
| 5/9/2020
|-
| Lakes, Mennowa, and Northern Railroad
| Construction (conceived and partially constructed before recent debates)
| Unnamed planned city in northern Tennewa (northwest), ME/OQ border
| Lake City, MN (southwest); Minneuka, ME (east)
| {{Relation|166194|LM&N}}
| Alessa
| ME, MI, MN, SN, TE (unbuilt), WA, WK
| AQ, OQ
| 34, 44, 48, 52, AL, TJ, WM
| 
| 6/13/2020
|-
| Hope Harbor Railroad
| far from complete
| Hartford, AS (west); Newport, AS (north)
| Ampersand, AS (east)
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/190219 HHRR]
| Marcello
| AS
| none
| none
| via Hope Harbor, AS 
Note: this is an independent (Class 2) regional. Please do not re-organise or incorporate in larger entity !
| 2020/04/06
|-
| Astrantia Northwestern
| far from complete
| East Vermouth, AS (west); Greenboro, AS (north)
| Newport, AS (south/east)
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/190221 ANWRR]
| Marcello
| AS
| none
| none
| via Hartford, AS 
Note: this is an independent (Class 2) regional. Please do not re-organise or incorporate in larger entity !
| 2020/04/06
|-
| Newport Harbor Belt
| far from complete
| Newport, AS
| Newport, AS
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/194576 NHBRR]
| Marcello
| AS
| none
| none
|  
Note: this is an independent (Class 3) local. Please do not re-organise or incorporate in larger entity !
| 2020/07/05
|-
| Walkegan and Eastern Seneppi Railroad
| partially complete
| Gleason, WK (northwest); ''city in NE Walkegan'' (north)
| Foxbend/Southern Seneppi (south)
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/191422 W&ES]
| Ernestpcosby
| SN, WK
| none
| AR120-52
| via Wallawaukee, SN
Note: this is an independent (Class 2) regional. Please do not re-organise or incorporate in larger entity !
| 6/12/2020
|-
| [[Great Western and Asperic]]
| Extant in part, being worked on
| Jundah, Tauh. (W)/Mojaca, Cosp. (N)
| Minneuka, Menn. (S)/Jericho, Tej. (E)
| [https://opengeofiction.net/relation/191635 GW&A]
| Brunanter
| Sra., Menn., Temp.
| -
| Tej., Sra., Apa., Tauh., Cosp., (-82/-74)
| 
| 6/14/2020
|}

</small>

I deliberately added two regional railroads to the above to avoid them to be 'eaten up' by larger initiatives. That already happened in part, actually, without asking permission. I sympathise with collaborative efforts, but one of the reasons I joined the AR120 initiative is that I wanted to build some regionals. Politely asking for trackage rights might work, however ;-) --[[User:Marcello|Marcello]] ([[User talk:Marcello|talk]]) 16:55, 6 June 2020 (CEST)
:One of the ongoing challenges of the AR120 project is balancing any "first-come-first-served" initiatives (that inevitably end up with a "race" to do something before someone else does and ends up pushing out any future mappers from participation) and actually getting things done. No one else should be mapping in your state without your permission, of course, so the point of this exercise is to get more regional coordination going between neighboring states to get some of these corridors mapped. That said, I think the FSA will have significantly more liberal trackage rights policies between the various railroads than what occurs in the U.S., so please don't feel "left behind" on any of this. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 19:37, 4 June 2020 (CEST)
::No hardship. We talked it all out. I (Hope Harbor RR) have granted (bridge traffic) trackage rights to MSTR (GESR). But how to map that properly ?-[[User:Marcello|Marcello]] ([[User talk:Marcello|talk]]) 21:37, 8 June 2020 (CEST)
There is a large overlap in S&S and GESR in Upstate Culpepper. Both are marked in a relation to the same track. What would that signify ? Double ownership ? Trackage or haulage rights given by one (who?) to another (who ??) ? Susan and MSTR quarrelling ? Just us all trying out what to do ?

=Standardized relation usage for railways in the FS=<!-- Please keep this section at the top of the top of the page :) -->
It would be beneficial to assemble railroad lines (all ways between two destinations) in a relation (one for north/eastbound and one for west/southbound?, separately for freight and passenger rail if needed) and create corridors, etc. with relations consisting of these relations. Are there any proposals how to do this without significant effort and simple access (where/how to list them?)?--[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 16:46, 9 May 2020 (CEST)
:see also the documentation: [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Drailway route=railway], [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dtrain route=train]. --[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 16:51, 9 May 2020 (CEST)
:I’ve been using the recommended tags on [[OGF:Federal States/Railways]] when mapping new railways or altering older railways, but I think while we’re still determining national corridors (see above) tagging relations on a national level is still a bit premature. You are welcome to get a head start in the areas you’re mapping, though. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 16:59, 9 May 2020 (CEST)
::Thank you for your generous offer! Spending much effort to create relations no one uses makes no sense for me. So if there is no effort to debate basic requirements/standards and provide a "how to do" what is it worth to list "corridors" and roleplay history of companies? Unfortunately, the corridor workspace rather looks like a new version of Railroad Tycoon than discussing how to complement the map. For me, it would be nice to get ideas how to organize these issues better (from the beginning on). If no one is interested in the mapping behind it, okay, continue playing.--[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 17:19, 9 May 2020 (CEST)
:::I agree with you Mstr. There isn’t being enough to justify wiki freight on the actual map. Recently I have been pushing for the development of more freight infrastructure and I think that all things should be mapped with relations. (BTW see my Sandbox where I have displayed different railways including ArchRail and Compass and Western Freight on Multimaps)I agree tagging should be Standardized, and the only thing I would change is that I do not think it matters to tag both directions on a line, as many times trains travel in a given direction not on the same track, especially in freight (at least in my experience) so I have instead  1 relation for each routing that includes both directional services. I have been trying to coordinate freight infrastructure with several states including New Carnaby, Penquisset, Arghenna,Gilliad, Washaukee, and Nipewa. For now I have done the mainline tracks and over the next weeks I will be adding the sidings, yards, and some industrial areas as well as a connection to some seaboard ports. I would love to collaborate with you on these things to make it the best that it can be, if you want. If FSA leadership is not willing to take the initiative I suppose some of us can at least try. —[[User:Zytik|Zytik]] ([[User talk:Zytik|talk]]) 06:13, 10 May 2020 (CEST)
::::For what it's worth, I think the work Zytik has done with the Compass & Western railroad -- specifically, coming up with a vision for the primary corridor and working with each stateowner in said corridor to get the railway mapped -- is a successful model that we all should consider emulating to create additional freight rail routes throughout the FSA that will eventually be used to create the major freight railroad companies of the country. I also agree with Zytik in that mapped relations for freight railroads should be bidirectional, as some stretches of rail will be single-tracked, especially outside of the denser areas of the FSA.
::::To be clear, I appreciate the work that both mstr and Zytik have done so far to help create integral parts of our national freight rail network in the FSA. It is my goal to empower other FSA mappers to create additional freight rail connections (and companies) elsewhere in our shared nation that we can use to build the complex, robust rail network that the FSA deserves, and I hope I can rely on the expertise and experience that both of you have in getting more mappers involved. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 08:39, 10 May 2020 (CEST)
I checked etensively on OSM at specific locations both in the USA and Canada, and could not find a coherent mapping for trackage- and haulage rights. What do we do ? —[[User:Marcello|Marcello]] ([[User talk:Marcello|talk]]) 21:33, 8 June 2020 (CEST)
:We will have to determine how we want to standardize things for the FSA. In the meantime my recommendation would be to tag each way based on the owner of that track, and then add route relations for each company. Wherever a route relation exists where the operator doesn’t match the way’s tag, we can assume that indicates trackage rights. But this will be an important point of discussion in the near future. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 21:57, 8 June 2020 (CEST)
::Adding separate relations for each line, infrastructure owner, operator and trains to a track makes it extremely complicated to modify the mapping later on due to the large number of relations. While the pros and cons of different concept are an ongoing discussion in the osm community, it might be a different situation here: Please keep in mind that we are not osm where the real situation is fixed and mapping does not fluctuate or drastically change! In addition, if ways are not split into logical sections (what I have seen usually they are not!), it is impossible to add any meaningful relation without modifying the map. This should be avoided. Placing a route relation on logical track sections (from the beginning on) solves both problems. These relations can easily be added to network, company, train, each other relation (relations in another relation, not ways in a relation!), are extremely simple to maintain once they are created (very important!), very flexible, no modification of the map to place a new route needed. Only infrastructure ownership should be directly mapped on the physical track.--[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 04:20, 13 June 2020 (CEST)

=Technical details=
==gauge 1435==

really you will tag all rails with 1435 mm? All rails ARE 1435 mm, if no other information is tagged --[[User:Histor|Histor]] ([[User talk:Histor|talk]]) 23:38, 27 July 2019 (CEST)

:It depends on, usally it is tagged, but at the moment this tag does not seem to be that relevant. It can be added later on without much effort.--[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 01:45, 28 July 2019 (CEST)

==platform lenght==

< 300 m for some platforms - I ask myself, what trains there stop. If one wagon ist - let us say  - 25 m, then Washington has place for only 9 (and one for the locomotive). What is with Elvis Mystery Train: "Train I ride, 16 coaches long...". Til now I construct platforms for long distance railways with 400 m (15 coaches and loco') --[[User:Histor|Histor]] ([[User talk:Histor|talk]]) 15:12, 28 July 2019 (CEST)
: I know some Amtrak trains with 5-7 coaches or less, the Acela Express has 200 m, so short platforms seem to be usual.--[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 15:21, 28 July 2019 (CEST)
::Less-busy stations can have shorter platforms because not all coaches open at each station. If Amtrak is our model, conductors manually open and close the train doors at each stop, and they usually have announcements on approach to the station regarding which coaches will be opening. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 15:40, 28 July 2019 (CEST)
:::On my short ride from Newark Airport to New York Penn' station with New Jersey Link last year the conductor did with my 9 $ ticket this and that and I ask me, for what and why. Indeed, he was a friendly man, but the efficience? So for mapping we can learn, that at smaller stations the platforms are short. Can the a station like this be realistic? [https://opengeofiction.net/#map=18/-41.36032/156.81883] --[[User:Histor|Histor]] ([[User talk:Histor|talk]]) 18:18, 28 July 2019 (CEST)

==fright train waiting tracks==

Can it be helpful to discuss about this? In Germany since 1900 this tracks are long 700 m. What with the FSA? Do we need it there, that slow freight trains can wait for faster passenger trains? Or shall the passanger train run after the freight train in the same slow way? I fear, it is so. --[[User:Histor|Histor]] ([[User talk:Histor|talk]]) 15:17, 28 July 2019 (CEST)
: We have to talk about the max. freigth train length, but freight trains NEVER wait for passenger trains since usually they have priority (and there are no passenger trains).--[[User:Mstr|Mstr]] ([[User talk:Mstr|talk]]) 15:20, 28 July 2019 (CEST)
::The best-case (longest) siding on a single-track main line would probably be [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/40.9856/-88.5430 something like this], about 3 km. This siding was recently upgraded in Illinois for Amtrak’s increase to 110mph service on the Chicago-St. Louis line, which is a busy freight line with five round-trip daily passenger trips. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 15:40, 28 July 2019 (CEST)
:::Single-track mainline. O.k. - what potential given away. One thing is positiv: I have not to map long sidings --[[User:Histor|Histor]] ([[User talk:Histor|talk]]) 18:02, 28 July 2019 (CEST)

==Thank you mstr!==

Just wanted to briefly say thank you to mstr for getting this page up and running. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 15:42, 28 July 2019 (CEST)

==Class I Railroads==

This was a very quick sketch (which is why it's in Paint) but here's one option for six Class I freight railroads in the FSA and a possible network. Names and routes are all up for debate, but I think we should start by limiting the number of Class I railroads to a manageable number (this sample uses six, or seven if there's enough interest in an additional north-south line between the central river and the eastern mountains). -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 00:17, 30 July 2019 (CEST)
[[File:MN-FSA_ClassI.png]]

I'm not totally sure, but I think it would be possible for competing railroad companies to avoid connecting with each other unless they have to. In areas served by two or three companies, I think it would be interesting to see how these areas are mapped.

Finally, I'm interested in seeing how the railroad companies choose their routes within the states. Will companies 'bid' on existing railroad lines and facilities? If a state has some well mapped rail infrastructure, maybe it would attract more companies to want to operate within the state? Just a thought! ---[[User:PColumbus73|PColumbus73]] ([[User talk:PColumbus73|talk]]) 05:14, 19 October 2019 (CEST)
:Unlike the roads, I'm building my rail lines in a historical manner, going with the first, earlier routes now and adding to them as the rail network expands. Some may go away/become abandoned as more modern routes are added. I also definitely imagine that several companies may serve a single route (versus individual lines per company early on). [[User:Brunanter|Brunanter]] ([[User talk:Brunanter|talk]]) 18:24, 19 October 2019 (CEST)

==Ports==

Should certain ports have a certain coverage area? For instance, the ports within the Stanton-Ann'harbor-Warwick metro area could be the busiest ports on the East Coast and serve a massive portion of the FSA, however, a port at Anne Abbey would serve a smaller region, consisting primarily of neighboring states? ---[[User:PColumbus73|PColumbus73]] ([[User talk:PColumbus73|talk]]) 04:29, 18 October 2019 (CEST)
:Ports should be somewhat self-selected based on topography, given that large coastal cities would have needed a safe harbor for ships to begin with. That said, this is OGF, so that’s not really an actual limitation. How far inland each port serves should be based on the port’s infrastructure (highways, railways, etc.) so mappers of the largest ports need to commit to have plenty of landside mapping to function. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 14:28, 18 October 2019 (CEST)

==Help & Advisors==

Is there anyone who specializes in realistic railways who might be willing and able to give advice to others about designing realistic rail lines? I know I could use assistance in creating realistic railyards. ---[[User:PColumbus73|PColumbus73]] ([[User talk:PColumbus73|talk]]) 04:29, 18 October 2019 (CEST)
:I have some experience, but when in doubt, just explore Chicago on OSM for rail yard inspiration: [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/41.7661/-87.7697 Clearing Yard], [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/41.8422/-87.7626 Cicero Yard], [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/41.8996/-87.8977 Global II], and [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/41.9533/-87.9094 Schiller Park Yard] are good freight examples; [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/41.8916/-87.6941 Western Avenue] and [https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/41.8641/-87.6357 14th Street] are good passenger coach yard examples. -[[User:TheMayor|TheMayor]] ([[User talk:TheMayor|talk]]) 14:28, 18 October 2019 (CEST)

Theres also Eklas to help as well. [[User:Eklas/Bliki|Check his railway tutorials.]]--[[User:Zhenkang|Happy mapping and God blesses you, ZK]] ([[User talk:Zhenkang|talk]]) 06:30, 19 October 2019 (CEST)